Controlling the Vacuum

Ok, there’s a few reasons I did this but mostly it has to do with my “BAD” experiences leaving electrical equipment running unsupervised for long periods of time.

See photo:

The challenge was to add some sort of on/off control over the vacuum pump so that it wouldn’t have to run continiously. Now this probably doesn’t seem like a problem to some of you guys who do small parts with prepregs, fast curing resins and post cures but for me I’m heading towards a full scale infusion of a boat hull that’ll be 30.5’ long by 10’ beam by 6’ deep with a full keel and that means on the outside of the hull approx. 70 sq. yrds in one shot!

http://www.fram.nl/workshop/controlled_vacuum_infusion/cvi.htm

The whole process isn’t really all that different from what you fella’s are doing with your car and motorcycle parts just on a much larger scale. When you start mixing up 10’s of gallons of very expensive epoxy for a single infusion you have to be very aware of what you’re doing, hence my experiments. I’ve learned enough from you guys here to feel confident enough to do this on our project.

The long run times for the pump are a result of the ULV epoxy resin used for the infusion of these large scale projects. The working time is over 5 hours with a 24 hr required wait till peeling the bag off. Post curing can speed up the process and that is possible but not very practical for such a large object. Some builders have been able to get upwards of 120 deg F with tents & propane heaters. As much as I enjoy watching the infusion process happen I find watching the epoxy till it kicks somewhat boring! :wink:

Ok, here’s what I did. On the joewoodworker.com web site they specialize in wood veneering supplies. They also promote the use of a “vacuum press” to ensure proper adhesion of the wood veneer to the substrate. Sound familiar? My brother is a cabinet maker and was looking for better results from his veneering projects when I found that site.

The full vacuum press plans are on the Joewoodworker site: http://www.veneersupplies.com/vacuum_press.php

The veneer press’s use a vacuum switch to turn on/shut off their pumps. This helps with wear and tear on the pump while allowing the layup to remain under adequate vacuum unsupervised. In order to achieve this setup there are a few considerations.

The Vacuum Switch: The vacuum switch is very sensitive. Fluctuations in the vacuum within the manifold (see pic) can cause the switch to flutter. This isn’t good for the equipment so there’s two things required to correct this. Firstly the switch should be as far from the main flow in the manifold as possible, preferably on your main reservoir or catch pot. The switch is adjustable from about 8" HG all the way up to about 29" HG. According to the mfgr it’ll require about 4" drop in vaccum to trip the switch for a restart. Mine is about 2" right now but I expect it to loosen up a bit with use. So for example, you have the switch set to stop at 29" it’ll restart when vaccum reaches 25" and pull it down again till it hits 29" again. It’ll cycle this way continiously for as long as you want.

Vacuum Dampener: A vacuum dampener plumbed just ahead of the vacuum switch prevents fluctuations of vacuum in the high flow areas from causing the flutter. It is simply a fitting with a very small venturi in it that restrict high flow to the switch.

The MAC valve: The MAC valve is nothing more than a solenoid controlled Y valve. In the normally closed config (w/o power) it allows air to flow through a filter into the low pressure side of your pump. It allows air in down to about 4" of HG then shuts closed. This keeps a small vacuum against the low pressure side of the pump which is, as I’m told, ideal for rotary vane type pumps for startup. The idea is to keep high vacuums away from the pump on startup which minimizes high amp draws on startup. When in the open config (w/power) the valve allows a straight draw of vacuum from the pump to the manifold drawing down your system to whatever level you have the vacuum switch set.

The Relay: Larger pumps (over 5CFM) can have significant amperage draw at startup. Anything over 10AMPS will fry the vacuum switch (yes I learned this the hard way). In order to still use the vacuum switch (they make higher amperage switches but apparently they aren’t as sensitive) on larger pumps you’ll need an alternative way to start and stop the pump. This is achieved by adding a relay. (I’ll post a schematic of the wiring when I get a chance). The relay is now controlling the MAC valve and the power to the pump. Wire in a wall switch and you’re good to go!

The small reservoir: From what I’ve been told is required on larger pumps to help the pumps get started under a low vacuum. Apparently it’s better for them than starting against a high vacuum or no vacuum. Hence the MAC valve as mentioned earlier. It’s nothing more than a 1’ length of 1-1/2" ABS with end caps and fitting.

The parts list:

[ol]
[li]MAC Valve $25.20
[/li][li]Vacuum switch $24.50
[/li][li]Relay $20.75
[/li][li]Dampener $10.90
[/li][li]Breather fitting (for MAC valve) $2.50
[/li][li]Pump Filter $14.95
[/li][li]Check Valve $12.95
[/li][li]Total: Approx. $115 w/shipping
[/li][/ol]

All parts available from: http://www.veneersupplies.com/default.php?cPath=60_36

You’ll also need a couple of rolls of 12 ga. stranded wire and crimp on fittings. Approx. another $10 unless you’ve got them kicking around.

All in all I felt this was a good mod to the vacuum pump for a number of reasons; no req’t to run the pump constantly plus you can set it and forget it, increase longevity of the pump, reduced fire hazard etc. My old grandpa, who was a master craftsman, always told me to look after my tools and they’ll look after me! Wise ole’ fella he was!

sweet…well when you are ready :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: let me know and ill do a trade with you…tape for parts to get my pump setup like that

I just got my new vacuum hose and fittings set up. I have a quick disconnect hose now from the vacuum pump to the vacuum resevior/resin pot. This way after 3-4 hours i disconnect the hose, bring the pot and the mold inside, shove the mold in the oven for 45 minutes to “post cure.” Nah… i don’t put the resin pot in the oven, just the hose and bake it all at 120-150F.

I’m interested in your set up also KnottyB. I already have a vacuum resevior so i would just have to buy the electrical stuff and the pnuematic or vacuum valve you have there and some fittings.

I had one mold bag hold vacuum above 15hg for 6 hours, then it slowly dropped below that, by morning it had 4hg in the bag still.

I control the valve with a PIAB vacuum switch which has a histeresis of only 0.60 inHg. Sunx, Efector & SMC also make good digital vacuum switches but they are pricy. I also use a VIAIR resovour tank instead of the PVC pipe.

http://www.piab.com/Templates/WebBase/Datasheet.aspx?id=10288

http://www.viaircorp.com/airtanks.html

Layed up two stacks of fabrics, one 4 layers of Saertex heavy heavy CF and one 8 layers of 1208 F/G. Managed to get a good seal on the bag first time and the pump ran once to draw vaccum down to 29" and didn’t run again until the infusion was almost complete (about 30 mins). One pull for a near complete infusion! Not bad eh? I’m likin’ this mod. Now I can turn the lights out and not have to worry about letting the pump run constantly or having to cycle it manually! :smiley:

I’ll pop the parts tomorrow and see how we did! I did let in some air that caused some bubbles but I think the large red flow media caught most of that.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/KnottyBuoyz/IMG_0416.jpg

i see you are using the tape you bought from me!!! hows it working for you? that tape is more sticky than some gooey bugers huh? i love this tape

Still working off of old stock. Yours is still sitting in the UPS Store! lol Won’t pick it up till Saturday. If it’s as sticky as this old stuff it’ll do really well! Gorilla snot is amazing stuff!

Hi, just chime in here, I didn’t follow the treat but saw you guy’s making vacuum switches etc. It’s all depending of the sort of pump one is using. I am doing big infusions with just a very small lab. pump, oil filled and who loves to run continues for days. I’m not intending to have full knowledge about vacuum pumps, only give you my experience with the pump I have. My setup is dead easy, the only small problem I have is that when I shut off the pump, either I have to clamp of the vacuum line (short after the pump) or to relaease the vacuum, otherwise the oil will be sucked out of the pump by the vacuum. See more at www.fram.nl

Hey Fram (sorry don’t know your real name)

Your site and the F39 build is one of the inspirations for my getting involved in this resin infusion stuff in the first place. I visit it frequently.

The guys here deal mostly with Carbon Fiber parts for cars and motorcycles but I’ve learned a lot from them on the process and materials. We’re working our way up to a 30.5’ trawler build, hopefully to start in the spring (if the kid’s college tuition doesn’t break us!).

I rigged the vacuum switch and the other assorted gizmos to help extend the life of the equipment and also have a “thing” about leaving electrical equipment running for long periods of time unsupervised (phobia with no name). They way it works now it only has to run occasionally to keep a part under vacuum, less noise etc. are side benefits. I imagine it’ll get a bigger work out when doing the hull of a boat.

Many thanks and keep the instructional videos & photos coming on your web site.

Rick

Hi Rick, the name is Henny and nice to hear my work is inspirating :slight_smile:
Good luck with your built and please have a little patience with fram.nl. Due to other commitments progress has been rather slow lately but more is coming :slight_smile:

Henny van Oortmarssen

Does anyone know how to convert microns into Hg mercury of vacuum?

google it! type “50 microns to Hg” or “50 microns to in/Hg”

or do it the fun way http://www.csgnetwork.com/prestableinfo.html

Go to page 11 of the following PDF document.

http://www.clrwtr.com/Sunx-DP2-Digital-Pressure-Sensors.pdf

quite understandable. I have a fear of freak accidents. That is why I own a fast motorcycle and don’t go fast. ya NEEEEVER know.

But, you can build a firebox for your pump!!! That way if anything happens, it’ll blow a few breakers, and cook itself in a fire-proof container! :slight_smile:

just saying.

is your pump RATED for continuous useage?

I’m not sure what Robinair says about continous useage. All i know is typical car or truck air conditioning system will vacuum out in less than a couple hours using a Robinair 15,400 model.

That must say something about it’s continous use. Having said that I have left my Robinair 15600 run for 12 hours straight.

just to add my 2cents here is my setup and i have enough reserve in the tank and i can control the amount being pulled via ball valve and a regulator. it works outstanding and i got most of the parts from veneersupplies.




Pretty much just built one of these systems myself…it’s definitely nice to flip the ‘On’ switch and not have to check on it every 10 minutes.

hi,c an you please share the wiring diagram schematic for your setup.

thanks.

wire the pump through a relais. Wire a pressure switch (vacuumswitch) between A1 and A2 of the relais.

This makes the pump being switched by the pressure switch. In the switch you basicly have 2 options (normally open or normally closed) which you just have to experiment.

I have a (simple) schedule, but in Dutch…

I know the original post is over 5 years old, but I also built a cycling system using the Veneer Supplies kit. Works great, use it with a Gast diaphragm pump.