I think in the battle of budget most all of us that make carbon parts use fiberglass in the laminate to cut down on our material costs.
How do price your work if it contains fiberglass behind the carbon fiber. I mean to me since i’m doing all the work ( this stuff is not easy to make and neither are the molds) I should get the same price for a cosmetic part wether or not it contains some fiberglass. I use epoxy resin (less shrinking and more flexible), and then i clearcoat all my parts with premium automotive celar coat.
What is your guy’s take on the subject of cf with fiberglass vs. cost and what to charge a customer?
honestly half your potential customers only care what it looks like. most have no idea what carbon fiber is. if they are actually going for light weight… half the crap people make out of carbon fiber wouldnt even be there. in my opinion. use a heavier carbon fabric with a lighter glass on the backside. think about it. 7 ounce to 5 ounce is only a 3 ounce difference. between one heavier ply and a light glass ply vs. two 5 ounce plys. if you use a lighter glass ply chances are it will be transparent and you wont even know its glass. on many parts i used to make i used one ply of 7 ounce fabric and painted the backside with flat black paint. if you want to keep the parts light make sure your glass weighs the same as your twill would be and substitute a ply with glass. if your making composite strucural part…which im sure your not…thats a different story. i use infusion with perforated peel ply and a layer of glass. i see right through the glass and can see the twill pattern. the peel leaves a rough uniform surface. ive never had a customer complain or even call me out on it. thay are always left with a shit eating grin on their face. but i would never lie about it.
its like diet soda…
its still soda and will still make you fat just like the real thing…
follow me?
btw use sherwin williams clear… its more expensive but with a good gun and a decent place to spray you usually wont have to buff your parts. when i paint a car it is what i use.
I have made all my parts with only carbon. I did a few with some carbon and some glass but subing in the glass resulted in a significantly flimsier part… I didn’t like that.
I will definately do it for some parts, because it only makes sense, it’s also a good idea to prevent galvanic corrosion, as I have learned…
for an example, Seibon (aftermarket car parts) parts:
$900 for a “carbon” vented hood – 2 layers of carbon, the rest fiberglass chop, or mat. I also believe the fiberglass version of the same hood is $3-400 cheaper.
As with any business, you have to look at total part costs. Mold making, and time/effort are utilities.
If a 10% CF part costs 100$, and a 50% CF part costs 200$, and a 100% CF part costs 300$, you would charge, 200, 300 and 400. Don’t sell a 10% CF part relatively more than a 100% CF part.
While yes, most people only want the LOOK of carbon, many people know that it is also lighter weight. If they are replacing their glass panels with CF, they expect a lighter AND stronger carbon panel. Even if it has glass in it.
Just watch out for marketing. Tell them exactly what they are getting. Be honest!! (GASP!!! a retailer being honest?)
I have never used glass in my parts except to make a mounting point, which HAD to be a certain thickness. The entire part was at least 400x stronger already.
it’s all about your costs, and how much more you want to sell it for. In the end, CF parts are there to lighten, and strengthen. They don’t have to be structural to be strong.
I agree about the being honest bit, we only use full carbon in our parts unless someone specifically asks for it or it needs to go up against aluminium. It peeves me off a little when someone markets their parts as the best lightest strongest carbon part going, charges the earth and you find its mostly fibreglass.
There is obviously a market for both though, a lot of people dont want to pay top whack for cosmetic parts and then thats just fine as you have to work to a budget.
Carbon £25 m/2
fibreglass £2.50 m/2
Its easy to see why a lot of manufacturers go this way, the material savings on big parts are huge!!
FG is not going away. 90% of what I work with in research is glass. There are some amazing abilities of glass over steel or aluminum. So the major thing IS cost.
One project I am on is using a 20 pound 24"sq panel of S2, along with tiles, rubber, and a thin sheet of S2. There are only 2 layers of carbon. One would think I would be making it out of carbon to save weight.
I wonder who many people are selling carbon fiber parts when they are using black coated glass!!!
wandering around at a car show, i was checking out the “big company” carbon parts on cars… all bonnets bar one , were glass underneath, some painted, some transparent. the underbonnet structure, glass too. the only one that was really high end, was a skyline bonnet which was prepreg and the quality on that one was unbelievable. unfortunately the guy wouldnt pop the hood for me to look underneath. anyway, as the rest of the guys say, its just cosmetic parts, why not? people like to pay less, we like to save more, so…
imo, if someone wants a full carbon part, he can order it… and pay accordingly.
exactly.
Besides, if it is going in a show only? who cares. They don’t get driven anyway.
If you want to save weight to minimize fuel use, better make it light weight!
I will definately do it for some parts, because it only makes sense, it’s also a good idea to prevent galvanic corrosion, as I have learned…[/QUOTE]
Can you please explane abit more about how it prevents galvanic corrosion? Woud it be a good idea to add some if i was glassing in aluminium engine mounting blocks under carbon?
If you are selling products it would probably be a good idea to let clients know exactly what goes into the piece. No sense in letting one know-it-all wreck your reputation. After all everyone can find prices of material on the net. Seems 30 percent above material cost is the norm, or cut competitors prices by a few bucks and see response. My 2cents. Good luck.
Can you please explane abit more about how it prevents galvanic corrosion? Woud it be a good idea to add some if i was glassing in aluminium engine mounting blocks under carbon?[/QUOTE]
Carbon is conductive, and so are various metals. Chemistry and science says something about dissimilar metals and how electrons transfer between them…or something. Kind of like plating something maybe. But when it goes from your bolt to the part, that is bad.
So yes, ALWAYS add glass to metal mounts. You can use stainless parts as well, but I think if that isn’t sealed well, it too will go bad after a LONG while. Many people wrap inserts in glass first. I think even regular epoxy would even be a good seal, as long as no actual carbon fiber touches the metal.
Aga i now have learned and completely agree with you… they can pay the extra cost and price for full c/f parts.
I use glass in my parts usually. A few parts i don’t but it’s because the glass is not nearly as stiff or strong as using all carbon fiber. I charge more for those parts.
30 percent more than material cost? are you serious? if a glass and carbon bonnet costs me 200 bucks in materials, and 2-3 days of labor, i will get 60 bucks for my 3 days of struggle? no sir, he will pay at least 500 and that’s cheap! (the bonnet is the most material-wasteful and labor and time consuming product, so i brought it as an example.) Another example…a rear bumper spoiler i make…costs me 40 bucks in materials. i sell it for 180. thats a decent profit in my book, enough to make me get up from my couch
I was trying to imply research competitors prices and cut’em by a few.An hourly rate of $50-$60 isn’t out of the question for custom one-off stuff.I have a fault of being pruduction-minded, building 10 parts and selling at 10% less, like a limited volume kinda thing.
