VE resin Cray Valley

General Composites Discussions Products Talk
#1

Hi, this is my first post on the forum and my english is not very good but i will try to make my self clear. I try to find VE resin for infusion. My local supplier recommend me “EPOVIA OPTIMUM KRF 1001” made by Cray Valley, i think. I know this is a resin not intended for infusion, but that`s what my local supplier recommend me. Now i have a few questions:

The resin label say “Epoxy based VE resin” What that mean? Is better than other VE system?

You think i can use this resin for infusion? Viscosity is 400–500 M dPa.s (sorry i dont know what that mean). I suppose it will work for small parts (1 square meter) .Also if i use a vacuum pump capable of 25 microns the resin “will boil” under full vacuum? How much vacuum i need to pull to prevent “boiling”?

Is there any laquer,(for in mold paint), that will bond to VE after full cure? I suppose i can`t apply vacuum until the paint is fully cured.

Finally, will VE resin stick to common body filler, waxed 5-6 times?

I never try infusion until now , so i can use any tips specific for infusion with VE resin .

Thank you for help.
Best Regards.

#2

Sorry I don’t have the answer for your question but I am looking forward to seeing what the experts say.

#3

a true VE is a modified epoxy. no idea how they do it though. there are other VE resins that are not true VE but instead are modified polyesters.

#4

Hi mariusandrei,

Give us a ring and ask for Louis or Ted, they’ll be able to answer your questions for you. 808.847.3951.

#5

My Romanian is even worse. Che vace? Biene, fara brenza and smeckerie are about the only words I know… Worked in Drobeta Turnu Severin for a few weeks. Liked to eat “Mic” sausages…

but i will try to make my self clear. I try to find VE resin for infusion. My local supplier recommend me “EPOVIA OPTIMUM KRF 1001” made by Cray Valley, i think. I know this is a resin not intended for infusion, but that`s what my local supplier recommend me. Now i have a few questions:

The resin label say “Epoxy based VE resin” What that mean? Is better than other VE system?
There are also novolac VEs, and even other types. Epoxy based are the most common.

You think i can use this resin for infusion? Viscosity is 400–500 M dPa.s (sorry i dont know what that mean). I suppose it will work for small parts (1 square meter) .Also if i use a vacuum pump capable of 25 microns the resin “will boil” under full vacuum? How much vacuum i need to pull to prevent “boiling”?
I took a quick look at the datasheet. The stuff is mainly focussed for filament winding and such. Which is not too bad, as it very probably is not thixotropic. (thixotropic resins are not good for infusion)
The VE will very probably not boil. But make sure you have a suitable curing agent. Some can generate gas during the first stage of curing. (these contain H2O2, which reacts with VE)

Is there any laquer,(for in mold paint), that will bond to VE after full cure? I suppose i can`t apply vacuum until the paint is fully cured.
Polyester gelcoat does the job. A bit heavy, but used industry wide.

Finally, will VE resin stick to common body filler, waxed 5-6 times?
Hard to tell. Sometimes the styrene can bite through the wax, and bond to the body filler. I would love to see some 2K PU paint on the body filler, to prevent problems. (let cure for a week, and use a high quality wax)

I never try infusion until now , so i can use any tips specific for infusion with VE resin .

Nothing specific for VE. Except for the foaming bit (gas formation due to H2O2.

#6

KRF1001 is an epoxy based VE. The figures you have written relate to the viscosity of the resin.
The one thing it does not tell us, is it thixotroped? KRF1001 is the style of VE resin it is. You need to confirm with the supplier on whatever the resin is thixotroped. The correct infusion grade CCP Composites (Cray Valley) VE is KRF1031 80-120 cps not thixotroped and generally supplied non promoted. Ask your supplier whether he has in stock. Demand vs storage will dictate whether they have stock.

#7

Thank you all for your answer.
The resin proved suited for infusion, i used this resin several times and it seems to work well. My only problem is gel time wich i too short (15 minutes or so). I used only 0.7 peroxide , at 24 Celsius for this gel time. When i tried 1 percent the gel time was too short. I will try another peroxide as the 0.7 ratio seems too low.
Thank you again for your replies.
Cheers

#8

Mariusandrei, ask your supplier whether he can supply you with either hydroquinone or tertiary butyl catechol both in solution form. Do not take powder form! They are not nice chemicals both in liquid form and even worse in powder form as they are at their purest form. Highly corrosive, avoid skin contact it. will burn your skin! Wear gloves and eyewear and dispose of the gloves after you have used them. Another one is acetyl acetone, ask the supplier to give you the recommendation on which of the above chemicals to use in your resin and the addition rates, to lengthen the geltime of your resin. Yes it also depends on the type of catalyst you are using but have found in the past, that you will only very marginally lengthen the geltime with a different catalyst. Generally, different types of catalysts will only alter the cure. Extending gel times is done by the use of the above chemicals. “Inhibitors” VE’s require a minimum amount of promotors to achieve cure and depending on the reactivity of the VE resin base, short geltimes can be a consequence of this. Do not lower promotion levels to lengthen geltimes, use “Inhibitors”!

#9

Indeed. In my experience, a 0,01% addition of acetyl aceton will extend the geltime with 10 minutes (just as a guidance). Do not add more than 0,03%.

I do not like your low peroxide level. 1% is really the bare minimum. Other peroxides exist that really DO extend geltime quite a bit.

See the attached PDF.

#10

Thank you for your answers.

#11

I agree Herman there are, but generally for polyesters not for ve’s. Ensure they are compatable for ve usage.

#12

You are right, and I checked my PDF. It is not really clear which peroxides are suitable for VE. At least the MEKP-9 series are, the CHM50, and the MCP. The latter gives a very nice long open time. I have worked with this resin, and I managed to create open times of 2.5 hours, while still maintaining a very good final cure.

I have made Dutch documentation, in which I split the peroxides in groups, for laminating, infusion, VE and gelcoat. However on this English forum that documentation is of little use. Stil if you want it: (I guess many will manage to read the important bits) http://www.brandscomposiet.nl/products/documentation/n/B10%20Peroxides.pdf

#13

I like what you have done even though I can’t read Dutch, will do the same here in Oz. The drama though with getting a wider variety of initiators in to Australia is that demand vs price vs storage makes it difficult to make these items available. You would be amazed how price regardless of how suited the catalyst system is to an application is a barrier to many major users. Small cost increase vs a far better, tailored result! It should be a no brainier.

#14

Basicly the same here. People do not want to pay say 50% more for peroxide (which is hardly an increase in product cost) if the benefits are not made very clear to them.

And indeed demand and storage can be a hurdle. We had big problems storing the stuff (spread around 3 locations) until we were bought by another company with virtually unlimited storage capacity, which makes things so much easier. Also the joint sales makes keeping stock easier.