Today's biggest cf part rip off award...

General Composites Discussions Composites Talk
#1

Today’s award for the most hilariously over-priced carbon fiber part goes to these guys:

https://clarkcustomguns.com/parts-category/ar-15/

$150 for a 4" long cf tube of 2" outside diameter is most definitely a rip off of epic proportions. In a world full of over-priced cf parts, it takes a lot to stand out so well done Clark custom guns!

Calling this teeny tiny tube a “glue-on handguard” is even funnier. It has no slots or actual workmanship of any kind to explain the price. If you want the actual AR mounting hardware that real handguards come with, it will cost you an extra $50 for that aluminum nut…

Now… don’t get me wrong… I am all for us guys here being able to make a healthy profit on cf parts. There is a lot of handwork, expensive materials, wastage, mold making and mold releases etc. it’s usually a real PITA so we deserve a little cheddar for our lost hair and time but… I could make a simple tube like that in less than 3 minutes of actual work.

I think we all need to go into the handguards business immediately if people are really dropping that kind of wood on a 4" tube…

#2

And I would guess that the cf tube is just a bulk pre-made item they purchase.

#3

It could be. It’s literally just a plain tube cut to size. Either way it’s lame. It would be very simple and quick to make them in-house for less than $10 all in. I make them regularly myself. It’s the easiest thing to make in CF that I know of. It’s even easier than making a flat plate.

#4

That’s priced about right. For a custom or niche market low-volume product, if your sales price isn’t about 6x-10x your direct cost to manufacture you’re probably not making any money.

#5

Exactly.

I really don’t see how anyone can sit here and criticise other people for their pricing. I for one certainly wouldn’t bother selling those pieces for anything less than $150, it wouldn’t be worth my time. $150 is pennies these days, it doesn’t go far. And that price isn’t just for the carbon tube either, you get the locking ring and the other bit with it as well.

You can’t realistically sit here and hold it against somebody for doing more than just scraping a profit. If somebody finds a product that costs them nothing and takes no time to make, but can sell it with a 700% margin then they’ve done a bloody awesome job and should be congratulated, not publicly bagged out for it. Hell, it’s what anyone in this game for the money is aiming for.

#6

i would join the club of those who thinks, that this pricing is gone mad.
have someone questioned himself how long someone have to work to earn $150?

another example. little more fancy road bicycle cost 10.000 euro. with that couple of parts.
and a cheap car where is a ton of material and 3.000 parts cost 8.000.
i think something here has gone seriously wrong direction.

#7

How long does it take to earn $150? Are you flipping burgers, or are you a doctor? It takes as long as it takes to find someone willing to give you $150 for what you’re offering…

End of the day, people are entitled to charge what they like. If people want to pay it then they will, if they don’t they don’t. There’s just no reason to come on here and bag them out for it. If you are a professional and you honestly think that what these guys are supplying is a rip off, then go into competition with them and provide the same thing for cheaper. Either you will get rich because you’ve solved a niche market problem, or you will not make any money because it turns out these guys had their pricing right for the market demand. Either way, it’s easy to just sit online and go on and on about how you can do it cheaper…

Comparing high end bicycles and low end cars is literally why there is a metaphor about apples and oranges. Although it’s more like comparing apples and screw drivers. Cars are a highly automated process, very little labour cost. You also have a massive massive demand for it - there’s millions of people that will buy a very cheap car because they need a cheap car. It’s ok to not make a huge margin on each individual car because you are going to sell 500,000 of them.

High-end bicycles tend to be hand-made, lots of labour hours with expensive materials. And then even if you can build the thing in 2 hours for 20 bucks, what is your demand? You think there are millions of people that all want a very high end bicycle? Are you going to sell 50 bicycles or 50,000 bicycles? Do you do a whole lot of work, supply the whole market and make 20% margin and then not have a market anymore? Or do you supply 2% of the market for 500% margin this year, and 3% of the market for 500% margin next year, etc…

But I digress. I’m sure that there are those of you who would consider the products that I make and sell a rip off. That’s fine, I don’t need to sell them to you.

#8

I 100% agree with Martin. I think it is part of every buisness and a massive part of why businesses don’t succeed or don’t get passed there 2 or 3rd year.
I think it is a massive part of why composites are expencive… A lot of things in the composite industry are niches. It’s not the cost of the composite part it self… It’s many many factors involved that generate the high price.
The simple fact of when 90% of the population here the word " carbon fibre" they instanly think $$$$$$$$$$$$ and are willing to pay for quality product.
Crappy products this day and age soon get whittled out quite quickly , so the whole rip off thing doesn’t seem to last very long at all any more…like it used to let’s say 10 or 15 years ago , and price almost becomes self regulating in a way as if the quality doesn’t Match , sales drop very very quick and that product goes.
I’ve aimed my buisness at being a niche , high quality product and a reasonable price to give me a very good Hr rate.
In resent times I’ve been able to develope a very unique building technique that has halved my building time and doubled my income on a hr bases. It’s taken about 5 years , a million hrs of R & D , and $$$$$$$ But it puts me a long leap infront of my competition , lighter , stronger , better. But just because I’ve halved my build time I’m not lowering my price…I’ve raised it.
I believe my clients are getting a much superior product , and more bang for there hard earned $$$$$ and the extra I make I can keep the evolution and development into more aircraft I want to bring to flight in the future. They…the customer are investing into somthing they love and want to continue. I put 10% of every sale in to the R and D account…this keeps my buisness development free from the day to day expenses of buisness and life. Us in the composite industry need to be able to create and innovate all the time. If you don’t your not in the race and someone else with pass you…the same as any industry really. But I do feel a lot of people in the composite industry are stuck doing things the same for 20 years , and I feel it holds a lot of people back in there field.
I have friend now who is exactly like that. And they complain about making $20AUD an hr , but won’t spend the $$$ or time to move onto somthing that will help them.

This week I’ve been in talks with a engeeering mate of mine who is changing a process of there’s to very high temp 5 minute pre preg system for electrodes ( part of the mining industry). This will allow them to make a part every 20mins compaired to a few hrs.
Increases there profit buy a hell of a lot , but allows the company there are doing the contract for to in turn increase there productivity buy double to get there contract completed.
Everyone’s a winner.

Everything on price is relative… And 9 times out of 10 the internet/market will adjust the price for you.

Just my 2 cents
Tim

#9

You get the barrel nut in the $150 price. The clamp for the CF tube is the extra $50. So this price is not unreasonable at all considering the cost to CNC machine the knurled and threaded barrel nut.

#10

plus devoping, storing, marketing, warranty…
The price is absolute ok and realistic.

#11

The way I look at it for my own business dealings is that pricing should be based on value above all.

I work on the assumption that customers don’t care how long things take to make, or how difficult and they care as much about my bills as I do about theirs. I think they will first ask if the price looks right for what they see in front of them. Then they will look at how it compares with the competition.

Nobody will ever convince me that the tiny plain tube is worth $150 but I am not really criticizing the seller as much as laughing that people would buy it.

If I could get away with charging that much for a cf tube, I would do nothing except make tubes all day. I am certainly not above it from a moral point of view. I’m more jealous that they can get away with it.

I don’t know how much it costs other people to make cf tubes but I think there is a lot more than a 6-10x mark-up on those tubes based on what it would cost me to make them.

While I agree that many cf products warrant a 6-10x mark-up (or more) due to the amount of effort, time and cost that goes into making them, plain tubes are not in that category for me. They are just a lot easier, faster and cheaper to make than everything else. Plus, other companies are selling more complex cf handguards with machined keymod and hexagon shapes etc for a fraction of the price.

#12

I ask again, how much is the value of machining the aluminum nut that is included? You don’t just get a piece of CF tube for that price.

#13

The nuts go for $5 to $10. Some as low as $2.50.

Here is another carbon fiber handguard that is longer, better looking and with far more craftsmanship going for $45 including all mounting hardware and shipping:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/223-5-56-7-Inch-Keymod-Carbon-Fiber-8-Angle-Octagon-Free-Float-Handguard-/302112374259?hash=item46574cfdf3:g:mBkAAOSwzaJX~qyR

To me, this handguard is a good example of where carbon fiber is used well for a product and the manufacturer doesn’t just expect customers to pay a fortune without them having to do any work just because it’s carbon fiber.

I look at this one and see a handguard. I look at the other one and I just see a plain over-priced tube. Not a finished product at all.

Anyway…I stand by my assessment. If anyone disagrees and sees good value in that plain tube handguard then I have no doubt that store will be very happy to sell you one.

#14

Zebra,

While I agree that the price seems high, I think you made a bit of a mistake right off the bat. You called it a rip-off in the title of this thread. That, to me, means you think the mfg is ripping people off. Now, in post #11, you suggest that it’s not the mfg but the buyer that you are “laughing” at. I could more agree with your post #11 sentiment than #1 although I don’t know that I’d be laughing at the customer. I’d imagine others might feel the same.

The mfg is selling a product that he thinks is worth $xxxX. As far as I can see, nobody is being forced to buy that product so I think calling it a rip-off is way off. The buyer can decide if the product is worth what the seller is asking. If the buyers think it’s worth $X, the mfg has basically two options - lower his price or not sell the item.