Spiral hose or Enkafusion CX 1000 ?

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#1

Hi to all, I will soon be faced with the infusion of a boat hull and I suppose just like like everyone without experience are a bit worried and many doubts arise, right now I have observed in several pictures and videos in youtube that it seems that quite a few boat builders tend to prefer using Enkafusion´s CX 1000 instead of the more traditional spiral tube for their resin inlet medium, and I wondered if there is any good reason behind that choice, it seems to me that the Enka´s CX1000 provides for a slower entry of resin but for a more uniform resin front as well, I would like to know if there are any real advantages to using one way or the other.

I am also suprised to see that many do not seem to be using any flow media (green mesh) on top of the stack and I wonder if this would also produce some beneficial effects like for example reducing the possibility of the resin front being too much forward and overtaking the resin front at the bottom of the laminate leaving dry areas behind.

I would like to hear what the people with experience have to say about those two doubts/fears I have.

#2

I think Inkafusion is a similar product to Compoflex in that the flow media is bonded to their peel ply fabric.
If thats indeed the case, the flow front is slowed just right to fully infuse top-to-bottom. That has been my experience. It does cost more per yard, but remember it contains BOTH materials and saves loading time, storage space and is superior when removal is handled.

#3

Thank you WW, like in your signature … we are seeking excellence

#4

I am assuming the Enkafusion is the 4" flat strip (flow mesh in a sock).

If so I feel the main difference is that the Enka channel (as I call it) can simply be laid flat on the back of a laminate and can be removed without really leaving a trace whereas the spiral channel is often placed off the laminate at the edge or wrapped within a bag pleat and further wrapped or in contact with a flow mesh. If a spiral wrap is placed directly on the back of a laminate it can leave an impression and a resin rich or pinched area either side of the spiral wrap.

The enka channel is easy to place and set up the bag, you just plumb your resin inlet pipes directly to the back of the enka channel. Plus is has a really big contact area to flow resin to your laminate and any flow type core materials like soric or a grooved foams.

Maybe small parts are more suited to spiral wrap since the resin can flow the distance right across your mould whereas large parts need multiple channels across the part since the resin can only flow so far (about 2-3ft) before the resin front will slow down significantly and the next channel is opened for a fresh fast resin front for the next 2-3ft.

#5

Indeed the Enka channel leaves less of an imprint, if any, as opposed to a spiral.

You sometimes see infusions without mesh, but in these cases either the channels are really close to each other (not my liking, but it works) or there is a flow medium in the laminate.

In your case I would not opt for a flow medium in the laminate, as this Always means some extra weight. (what core are you planning to use, if any)

I have no idea of the status of your project at this moment, but you should be doing some tests with the proposed laminate of the boat, to see if flow is what you expect (a bit less flow can be corrected by adjusting the infusion strategy) and more importantly even is the surface quality.

I suggest doing at least a 30cm x 1 meter test of your bottom laminate, and your topside laminate. Perhaps also the stern, if that is heavily reinforced. This will give you data on surface quality as well as data to generate an infusion schedule.

#6

Hi Herman, we will soon be making the tests of all the materials wich we are going to use in our boat hull as you suggest, so far, our plan is to use one layer of continuous filament mat in between every layer of multiaxial fabrics and to use greenflow 75 as our surface flow medium over some peelply (Econostitch red traced)

I suppose that if an extra layer of green flow and peelplyer is placed under the spiral hoses the imprint of the hose in the finished laminate will be minimal if any.

We plan on infusing our hull #1, in a sequential fashion with some Corecell M80 perforated and cut on both sides, only the sides of the hull will be cored, the bottom and submerged zones will be solid glass laminate.

We will be using the vinylester infusion resin and other resinous products made by DSM (unless you have something to advise against)

I would very much like to hear your comments in regards to our choice of materials and methods :slight_smile:

Our project, right now is at the stage of: completed hull mould with rotation system and ready for making hull number one:

#7

I do not see any problems in that. Just make sure you have a light CFM/Unifilo, not a heavy one. In terms of strength is it not the best product.

Also make sure you vacuum your stack long enough to allow water to evaporate, and foam to equalise pressure.

The foam: perforated and cut: In that case your infusion might be very fast. Definately do a test, you might not like the speed. At this moment it seems that you are not confident the resin will make it before it gels:

-fast infusion mesh
-perf/grooved core
-unifilo

All 3 are speeding the flow. And 2 of them make your product heavier. For your understanding I would do some tests as well with non grooved foam (double cut foam) or without unifilo.

Especially when doing a sequential infusion (and you know my opinion on sequention infusions on product which are not flat), apart from the constant monitoring, you want a slower resin speed.

DSM resin is OK. (of course ours is MUCH better :))

Love the mould, by the way.

#8

hi Jigger. Dry stacking multiple layers of CFM will be challenging. What is your reason for using CFM?

#9

main reason for the use of CFM should be improving the wet out, and also a laminate with CSM (as opposed to CFM) with its multiple strand ends is more prone to moist absortion than CFM wich has much less open strands … or so they say …

#10

Hi Herman, you have good memory in regards to our conversations, I recall your preference in regards to the strategy: sequential in the “v” part of the hull and fishbone in the sides above the “V” … unless you know something better right now, specially considering the advancements of every technology nowadays.

Why do you say CFM is not good structurally? I thought is was best for infusions improving the wet out … always good to know which disadvantages it might have …

And in regards to perforations in the core I thought they where necessary to allow/improve the wet out of both sides of the core …

The grooves of the core, apart from comformability reasons in our flared bow, I though they where needed (not optional) to have a decent resin flow … ¿??

And the greenflow being a fast surface medium, I thought that it was standard …

I would be interested in hearing your best advise in regards to “the big day” :confused:

#11

Read your post: You give 3 options for resin flow, where you need one, or perhaps 2.

CFM: It is very compressible. Multiple layers have a large thickness, which is reduced considerably with vacuum. This means laying up the stuff dry is a pig job. (been there, done that, ripped the Tshirt). Structurally it does not bring much, except some thickness. Osmosis should be dealt with in the first layers behind the gelcoat, not the laminate itself.

What my suggestion would be (still would need some testing, but to give you a starting point)

-gelcoat
-csm 225 fine tex with vinylester
-peelply
-cure
-remove peelply (carefully)
-multiaxials (as much as you need)
-cfm/unifilo (leave away from chine)
-core (double cut) (leave away from chine)
-multiaxials
-peelply
-perf film
-mesh
-runners
-bag

As for strategy: fishbone bottom towards chine, fishbone from chine upwards

#12

Hi Herman;

IMO, applying peelply over the skin coat for removal before infusing is too much of a hassle (if not too much of a risk as well) and our plan is to use a specially formulated resin to act as a tie coat, in the case of our DSM resins provider, they reccomend for a top quality job the use of a barriercoat over the gelcoat (barriercoat SV722-1966) then on top of that, the skin lamination with two layers of CSM 225 hand laminated with the tiecoat resin Atlac E-NOva MA6325 and then within two days the infusion should be made wich in our case would be with Atlac E-Nova MA6215.

Also I believe that in your suggestion you meant to use either peelply or perforated film but not both.

In regards to fishbones and sequential strategys, I personally find fishboning to be more intimidating because larger quantities of resin have to be catalised and ready all at a time because the fishbone will have a much longer resin front and thus the needs of more resin ready that might get swallowed in a short time, also the resin front in the case of fishbone would have a shape that would be less adapted to the contours of the piece (a hull), but maybe you could point out for me wich and where are the advantages of the fishbone strategy

#13

Jigger. As Herman said CFM is very thick before vacuum is applied. This means your laminate stack compresses a lot as vacuum is applied. This can lead to bridging and creasing of the multiaxials. Structurally, CFM is about as poor as CSM. By the way, CSM doesn’t wet out easily with infusion. This is why one of the early techniques was to use CSM as a resin brake between the laminate stack and the vacuum spiral. Been there and done both and ripped both T-shirts … lol :slight_smile:
I am not a fan of peel ply over the skin coat either. Although I hear that some do it and I wouldn’t criticise them. It just seems too much of a risk of pre-release to me. And my boats are smaller than yours. BTW I love the styling of your boat. I do agree that osmosis should only be a consideration in your skin coat.

#14

In the past I have made several tests, on adhesion on skin coat. I suggest you do the same for your resin combination. I layed up on a piece of glass (use whatever you like) gelcoat, skincoat, and then several options of adhesion promotors (sanding, no sanding, sprinkling with glass fibers, sand, and peelply.
Only the one with peelply I was not able to destroy (rammed chisel between skincoat and laminate.)

Do the same with your resins, andsee what the effect is. It is better to check now then later have problems when the boat is on the water.

A barrier coat is Always good. Do you have spray equipment to spray it? Be careful not to overapply in the chine (prerelease). Also put the panels in the sun, and check them a week later, for print issues. Although the proposed graphics will hide any defects, it is Always best to have a Class A surface.

#15

Does anyone have a picture of the fishbone flow setup in a mould? Just curious to see.

#16

Two days to lay down your reinforcement,coreing, reinforcement,peelply,plumbing , bag within a two day window ? not happening…unless you have large skilled crew

#17

Hi and thanks to all for such valuable first hand information, in regards to mat either CFM or CSM, it is not of my liking structurally either but our naval engineer said it had to be there to give the (solid no cored) laminate of the bottom of the hull some thickness to improve the rigidity, since I do not like the idea of coring the inmersed parts of the hull, be it CFM or CSM, I did not know that it was more difficult to lay dry or that it was thicker. In regards to improving the resin flow with the CSM, I have been assured that since the strands where continuous, they will leave continuous channels that improve the wetting, I will make some test pannels and see what happens, one thing for sure I do not want any kind of trouble when laying the dry materialas or bridging as ASB pointed out.

I will test the adhesion of my test panels with and without after skincoat peelply, but as far as I know there are plenty of builders infusing and relying in the Vinilester tiecoat proposed and not having trouble with this secondary bond.

And Mr cheekybrad, we believe it to be feasible if having as many things as possible premade, before the lamination of the gelcoat/barriercoat/skincoat I mean the core cut to shape and with edges beveled, and maybe even the glass precut and rolled ready to put in place, maybe precutting and rolling the glass is not worth, maybe is equally fast to dispense the glass of the different kinds straight from the rolls dispenser and cut in place with electric roto scissors, I admit I would like to have more time, a time that the after skincoat peelply would surely give, peelply could be ripped in narrow stripes to avoid pulling too much, if the skincoat is tough and a bit thick it may be worthwhile but still another task. It is said the VE resins being of the family of epoxis have a much friendlier nature in regards to secondary bondings than other resins, so it may be that they adhesion is good (unless attacked by a chisel … )

#18

Mr Fast this is a fishbone infusion lay down of hoses, I find it a bit unnatural but it is widely used in Europe, often split at the chine into two fishbones (perpendicular to lengthwise vertical resin lines)as Herman proposed.

It might have the advantage of infusing a hull faster and thus all the resin hardening almost at once, the people who makes the Polyworks software seem to use it quite alot as can be seen around the web

#19

Mr ASB, thank you for your comment on our boat, you might find interesting to take a look to a build thread I have in another forum, at least to take a look at the pics since reading it all might not be too interesting for you.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-outdoor-photos/372020-raptor-project.html

#20

Thank you very much for your posts w/pictures in Hull Truth. I just finished reading them. I’m very impressed and wanted to thank you for teaching me so much.