Sheet Metal in Composite

Hello,

I am making a carbon fibre telescope tube for a school project of mine. I was hoping that I could use aluminum sheet metal either in-between or on top of the layup so that I am able to attach my telescope components that I am needing to the tube. I have done some looking online and haven’t been able to find other people doing this. I was told to do this by my program coordinator but he hasn’t told me any more detail of where to look into it. So I was wondering if anyone could help me out as to where to look or any experience that you’ve had with doing something like this.

Thank you,

Jason

Yeh no problem. If you are including the ali sheet in the layup then make sure you insulate it from the carbon fibre with a layer of fibreglass, otherwise you will get galvanic corrosion.

If you are bonding the ali sheet onto the already cured carbon fibre using a structural adhesive, then this shouldn’t be an issue, the adhesive will insulate it.

Thank you for your reply,

Now if I choose to put the aluminum in the carbon fibre, how much fibre glass should I put around the aluminum sheet? Will one piece on either side be enough to prevent the corrosion? Or will I need a couple pieces on either side.

Also is there a special or certain kind of adhesive to attach the aluminum sheet to the cured carbon fibre? Or would I be able to use the same resin that I would use for the carbon fibre?

And Im assuming that I wouldn’t be able to use a mechanical fastener (rivet, screw, etc) due to possibility of corrosion as well, to join the aluminum sheet to the cured carbon fibre

First, what is the function of the aluminum sheet in your laminate? If you require fastening items to the laminate with threaded holes, you would have to be using fairly thick aluminum sheet to provide any useful thread, in which case the aluminum by itself is probably sufficient without being part of a laminate.

Having such a large surface area of aluminum sheet as a part of your laminate may result in problems with the part long before corrosion would be a concern. That problem being the large difference in CTE (coefficient of thermal expansion) between the carbon fiber and aluminum. For something like a telescope tube, the stresses in the laminate from the thermal expansion/contraction may be enough to affect the alignment of the optics, or may result in bond failure between the aluminum and the rest of the laminate.

As to galvanic corrosion, it’s definitely a concern between aluminum and carbon fibers, but mostly apparent when the area of contact between the two is exposed to an electrolyte. If the aluminum is completely encased within the laminate and no moisture is present, the corrosion will be extremely slow. Areas where you may have holes through the laminate exposing the interface between the carbon and aluminum, will be far more likely to corrode (but even then it would be very slow unless that area is exposed to high atmospheric humidity or a liquid electrolyte).

If this were my project, I would not use aluminum within the laminate. I would bond threaded inserts to the laminate where fasteners are required. This should be done in a way so that sufficient bond gap exists between the laminate and any surface of the metal.

Any time you want to use mechanical fasteners through a carbon fiber laminate, it’s best to “pot” the through holes with some kind of resin or adhesive to insulate the laminate from the metal.

I am also think the same as above, firstly to understand why you need metal to attach your other parts?

The carbon fibre can be thick enough to tap threads and it can also be bonded to with many types of adhesives.

As for the use of the aluminum, I am making a Dobsonian telescope but instead of having the secondary mirror that goes into an eyepiece I am putting a small Raspberry Pi camera where the focal length is.
So I was thinking of having a sheet to be able to attach a case for the Raspberry Pi on the side of the telescope and I was planning on using CNC machined Aluminum to hold the mirror at the bottom opening of the tube (which I was hoping on being able to thread and screw onto the tube). Also at the top of the tube where the camera would be I want to use aluminum to hold the camera in place to be able to use it (and again, threading it into the tube). So where I would be attaching the top and bottom aluminum holders would be some aluminum sheets to thread and attached all together. Or would it be a better idea to do the treaded inserts in the carbon fibre to attach it all? I found the idea on makezine.com, here is the link to the page for reference.

http://makezine.com/projects/gaze-across-the-solar-system-with-a-3d-printed-raspberry-pi-telescope/

Now if I were then wanting to thread the carbon fibre instead of putting in inserts, normally how thick does the laminate have to be to make a sufficient thread?

Could something like a Rivnut be used to make attachment points? All this would require is a hole to be drilled in the tube - no need to think about including aluminium sheet within the laminate or needing to bond it to the tube.

[QUOTE=petey1549;64292]First, what is the function of the aluminum sheet in your laminate? Having such a large surface area of aluminum sheet as a part of your laminate may result in problems

So what the sheet metal will be doing is to be able to attach other components of my telescope to the tube. There will be a need for a sheet so that I can attach a case for a Raspberry Pi so that I can use a camera that I will mount at the focal length of the mirror. Also I am planning on having an aluminum base (CNC machined not just a sheet) for the mirror to sit on and an aluminum top piece so that I can hold the camera in the centre of the tube. Where I got the idea from was on makezine.com, here is the link,

http://makezine.com/projects/gaze-across-the-solar-system-with-a-3d-printed-raspberry-pi-telescope/

Hopefully that will give you a better idea as to what my project is.

Now if size of the aluminum piece makes a big difference in the CTE, what if I were to just put in a small piece big enough to be able to put the treads through the laminate and sheet metal so that I can attach what I need to do.

How thick would the laminate have to be to make sufficient threads to be able to attach components?

I see where you are going with that, unfortunately I do not have that much room inside the tube to allow for a Rivnut, as they would block some of the light coming into the telescope and hitting the mirror so I don’t think Ill be able to use them, but thanks for the idea!

So what the aluminum sheet will be doing is allowing me to attach a case for a Raspberry Pi on the side of the tube and I want to CNC machine out a mirror base for the bottom and a holder for a camera at the top of the telescope at the focal length, the top and bottom pieces will not be a sheet but bigger pieces that I was thinking I could screw them through the tube to attach it all.

Where I got the idea for this project was on makezine.com, heres the link to give you a better idea.

http://makezine.com/projects/gaze-across-the-solar-system-with-a-3d-printed-raspberry-pi-telescope/

Now if the size of the aluminum sheet is the issue for CTE, what if I were to put a small piece just the size I needed to put a thread through the laminate to be able to attach everything. It would also have a better chance of being flush in the laminate to then hopefully reduce or eliminate the chance or corrosion.

Now if I were to do the threaded insert idea, would I just have to have a hole in the laminate where I want them to go, and what material would they be made of, perhaps a plastic material so that I wouldn’t have to worry about any corrosion or anything in the situation

I think a 2mm wall thickness of carbon would be sufficient for the threads although that makes for a pretty heavy duty tube.

Maybe you could make a thinner tube and just bond extra carbon or metal in the areas where you need the fastenings?

I doubt that corrosion would be any issue if it is always dry and out of the weather.

Thats a good idea about making just where I need thicker than the rest, I had mentioned to one of the other people that replied that maybe I could just put a small size piece of aluminum big enough so that I can fit in a screw to attach it all and then it wouldn’t be that much aluminum inside the laminate.

But yea Im not going to be using it when its bad weather out, there is a chance that there could be moisture in the air, there have been times where I get dew on my other telescope, but I do have a dew heater that I could wrap around it, if it’s big enough, to help prevent the dew from getting onto the laminate. But then at that point is the heat from the heater have the chance of damaging the tube? Could it soften the resin in the laminate or what other things could go wrong with that? I know they had said CTE was in issue, would using a heater on the tube increase the chance of that and damaging it all?

I don’t know all the parts or details of what is being put on it but why not just buy a carbon tube the size you need and then glue bond a section of alloy on the bottom and top ? where needed keeping it simple and clean. Hope fully just 1 or 2 pieces. Then tap your threads and it’s done.

A bought carbon tube made with the pre preg process will probably have been cured in manufacturing at 120-130 degrees C so nothing will do any harm to the carbon in everyday use as long as it is less than about 130 degrees C.

Carbon has near enough zero expansion with temperature changes.

Just bond the stuff… why mess around with screws if you don’t need them. Or bond on a bolt or screw to give you something to attach to. Why bother going through the laminate at all?

Its a manufacturing project so I don’t know if I were to buy a tube would it take away from the manufacturing aspect of the project. Plus I would like to get more experience with composites than what I have done in classes already so making the tube will be beneficial to myself.

I have never done a laminate with something like this inside of it so I think it would be a good learning experience plus it will have a much cleaner and smoother appearance compared to if I just bonded the pieces on top of the tube

I agree with just bonding too, as long as there is sufficient surface area on the bonds then go for it.

Depending on the materials the options are typically, epoxy glues, methacrylate glues or polyurethane (sikaflex).

Find a super smooth mandrel to make your tube.
Do a wet laid laminate of carbon and wrap it with shrink tape. Use a hot air gun to shrink the tape. Job done. Bond you parts.

There are two ways you go go about this as mentioned before:
1 - bond in “densifications” (sheet metal was suggested) for the mounting area.
2 - bond the mount externally

The third option (directly threading into the composite) will not last. Composites are extremely fragile in the small scale (resin dominated) and when there are stress concentrations (such as threads) where a crack can start and propogate along a tow/yarn. I have never seen a laminate directly threaded.

Option 1 will require either a thick plate to directly thread into, or allow the screw threads to protude into the tube. Keep in mind the plate does not neet to be metal (think delrin or nylon).

I would go with option 2. Bond a attachment for the mount onto the outside of the tube. Make sure the surface area is sufficient for bonding. Drill the attachment plate and thread just the plate for the screws. At least, thats how I’d do it (and it’s pretty similar to what I see everyday at work).

-Ben