Hello all
I have a fiberglass boat repair shop. We find ourselves often needing cored panels laid up; for replacing floors, decks, hatches, bulkheads, etc. I am looking to set up a station in my shop where I can have an employee laminate panels (mostly nidacore and divinycell or similar) of varying layup schedules depending on the job parameters. I would like to be able to lay up panels with at least one glossy side.
My experience in infusion and vacuum is extremely limited. Is the concept of some type of vacuum table logical for this application? Or is it more logical for a small operation to hand lay these panels onto a panel mold? I am currently using a DCPD poly laminating resin and poly gelcoat. 1.5 oz mat and 1708 biax.
Would I be able to create come type of reusable vacuum table setup and consistently lay up panels…?
I think such panels can be purchased for about $350/laminated sheet. That is retail, I havent been able to discuss prices with my composite supplier yet, but I cant imagine them being too much less on the wholesale side.
Thoughts?
Thanks so much
Nick
Bueller? Bueller?
The simplest and easiest/cheapest way is to just get a glass table that suits the size of the panels you need to make. Invest in a semi-permanent release agent (you’re using a gelcoat, so I would recommend Zyvax Flex-Z to avoid issues with separation and pre-release) to save on having to reapply release avent.
Then you can decide whether wet layup vac bagging is more efficient, or whether you want to go the extra investment with infusion. Personally wet layup is a pain for me and takes WAY longer, especially with flat panels. I always use peel ply anyway, so the only extra investment is the flow media and the resin lost in the flow media.
These such panels are MUCH cheaper to make than they are to buy, once you’ve got the setup and the materials. Of course I’m not paying an employee to make them, so that’s an additional cost that you would have to factor in.
Hanaldo thanks so much for the response. Thats what I was looking for. I have no infusion experience to speak of. Are there any resources available to explain the best points of resin introduction, where to pull vacuum, etc?
Also would infusing over a core like dinivycell be able to saturate laminate to both sides of the core simultaneously?
Thanks again
One of the best sources of information I have found is in the ‘MTI Hose’ thread on these forums. Great thread that.
Otherwise, just watch the Easy Composites videos on YouTube. They explain things in a way that make it very simple and straight forward for beginners. The type of panels you want to make will be very straight forward, you shouldn’t need to worry too much about resin feed and vacuum placement on flat sheets unless they are very large.
Flat panels can stacked then infused,not sure on the limit but i see no problem doing 5 4x8 shheets at one time.Feed from the perimeter and vac in the middle.All sheets need to be perforated 1/16 on 1" centers so this only works on foam,flow media first then your 5 or?? sheets go ontop with peelply and perforated plastic inbetween ea layer.This way you only need one layer of flow media and your panels dont have to be the same size,biggest on the table to smallest.You end up with a peelply surface on all sides.
Dont overhang the glass on ea layer keep just short or youl have cut off the ends with a saw to separate ea layer
heres the finished product you can see the peelply and film between.
Not something you can do with gelcoated sheets though. I get the feeling these sheets have a cosmetic element to them as well rather than purely structural.
Imc, I forgot to answer your question about infusing divinycell. You can infuse divinycell providing you either use the drilled and scored version (expensive) or you drill and score the sheets yourself. I actually prefer doing it myself anyway, because the pre-scored version has relatively deep and wide channels cut into it that are unnecessary and just use extra resin, make the panels heavier, and increase print. I prefer to punch holes in my sheets with a small screw driver every 2", then lightly score between the holes on one side (the side that won’t get any flow media) with a metal ruler. The scores don’t have to be deep at all, you could even do it with your finger nail if you were so inclined.
Guys this is fantastic. Thanks so much for the help. The panels have both a structural element and a cosmetic element. They will generally be post finished and painted in all situations, but starting with a nice gloss surface speeds up paint prep greatly.
Mike: I love the idea of laying up multiple panels. I will start small and see what happens.
Do all of these same principles apply if I choose to use Nidacore also?
Nida core is a honeycomb core is it not? In this case, you wouldn’t be able to infuse with it, as all the cells would just fill with resin creating a very expensive and extremely heavy panel.
You could however use the same glass table to layup panels with Nida core using hand layup.
Yes the idea of multiple panels is to save time and consumables you have to use peelply on ea side. For the honeycomb they do sell an infusion grade (plascore) has holes on 4" centers but ive never used it.
Hand layup on the nida with a mylar film overtop will produce a flat shinney surface similar to a mould for a quick one off part.
Hanaldo, interested about scoring the foam ive done small tests and yes indeed the factory groves are big and spaces are quit close 18 mm how far apart do you suggest? I would be worried about dry spots of the holes and grooves get too far apart
I’ve only ever done relatively small panels (1.75sqm is the biggest I’ve done with 10mm divinycell), though I don’t see why size would matter too much. I always go holes 2" apart. Have never had an issue with dry spots with 2" centres, but I did have issues on one sheet where I tried to go further apart. I never measured the distance, but it would have been around 4" apart.
Stick to 2" and you shouldn’t have any issues.
erm, what stops the sheets from bonding to each other ? did i miss something ?
The perf plastic film between the 2 layers of peelply
If you are trying to optimize for weight, infusion is a great process. If you are trying to build cost effective parts, then I’m afraid I’m going to have to go against popular sentiment here. You can hand lay this panel as fast (if not faster) than you can infuse it. Material costs will be virtually the same. You don’t have any money tied up in consumables. It might weigh a hair more than an infused part but for the type of things you are using it for, the difference will be a rounding error.
I use a variety of methods to complete tasks - lite RTM, infusion, wet bagging, hand laminating and yes, even the dreaded chopper gun. I pick the method that best suits the job. I’m not in love with any one method.
The reason I choose one method over another is because I do this for a living, not a hobby, and I am very conscious of the bottom line. The choice is affected by all parameters - labor, materials, weight, strength, etc.
wow thats interesting , i would have thought the panel would be too stiff to separate it , you learn summing everyday
handlaying 5 panels or infusing 5 panels … i know what id rather be doing 