Infusion problems with non-saturation using core

well here is my issue.

I infused a roof replacement and I had a couple dry spots.

I was infusing with a RTM Ver and my layup goes as following
1 layer 5.7oz kelvar/carbon
1 layer 12 oz biaxle fiberglass
1/16th" foam core
1 layer 12 oz biaxle fiberglass.

I covered about 3/4’s the mold with flow media and I did not have a problem with the infusion. As you can see from the pictures that I had some major non-saturation problems on the bottom layers. The top layers saturated fine but the bottom did not. You can also see where I had to cut the foam and piece it together since I could not get a big enough sheet to make it one piece. Anyone have any suggestions I can do to saturate the bottom layers? Should I make a layer of flow media under the foam core to be part of the piece in the end to get it saturated. The resin I was using was pretty thin and ran really well. I infused the whole thing in about 11 minutes. ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Good job overall.
First of all, how did the resin even get to plies 1 and 2 under the core? Is the core solid foam, or perforated and/or scored? The small dry spots close the edges are unusual, the middle one not so much.
Which way did you infuse? Lengthwise or sideways?
Where were the vacuum draws and resin feeds?
How do you decide when to clamp off the resin feed?
Do you have resin specs? How long did it take to infuse and what’s the pot life? Could have gelled before flowing completely.
I believe you’re saying that 12oz biaxial glass is used. So it’s non-woven?

Cover ANY areas that you want the resin to get to, with flow media.
If you are indeed using non-woven glass, that’s good. It flows better than cloth. Bi-axial simply means that it has 2 fiber directions built in. Is it 0/90* or +/-45*? In this case it should be +/-45* to aid in torsional rigidity since the carbon/kevlar is at 0/90* already.
Optimally, there should also be a ply 4 of carbon/kevlar. Composites should generally have an even number of plies, and be balanced from the midplane out. Example: 11 plies on one side of a core, means you need 11 identical plies on the other side of the core to balance it out, for a total of 22 plies. So, ply 1 matches ply 22, ply 2 matches ply 21, ply 3 matches ply 20, etc.

Hope some of that helps!

That did help,

let me answer your questions

Q: First of all, how did the resin even get to plies 1 and 2 under the core? The foam is a full piece of foam.
A: There is no scores or channels in it. The core is Divinycell H80. It was several peice of foam I had to make into one. How do i stop the surface layer from lifting where the core edges are?

Q: Which way did you infuse? Lengthwise or sideways?
A: I infused it sideways. I had 2 intake lines and 2 vacuum lines. All sideways to the part

Q: Where were the vacuum draws and resin feeds?
A: Same as above

Q: How do you decide when to clamp off the resin feed?
A: I clamped off the line when it was fully infused

Q: Do you have resin specs? How long did it take to infuse and what’s the pot life?Could have gelled before flowing completely.
A: The resin had a 25 minute pop life. I had it fully infused in about 11 to 12 minutes and had still about 10 minutes to spare after it was fully infused. As far as the specs it has a 25 minute pot life at 2% and that is what I used. Could the resin be too thin and running too fast and end up closing itself off?

I believe you’re saying that 12oz biaxial glass is used. So it’s non-woven Here is pictures of the fiberglass fabric I was using

My big question is… Can I put flow media under the core to ensure that the layers are infused? The flow media will become part of the part. Will I have issues if I do that?

Also here is pics of it before vacuum was applied to see my line I had ran.

This is another one I had ready to infuse as of right now. I will have to rip the bag and do it different probably.

2 vacuum lines

2 inlets

I had more flow media on the other one. I only had the flow media on the backside and none in between the layers

Good info.

Just curious, how much vacuum is being pulled and how long does it hold during a leak down test? Most likely not an issue, but possibilites need to be eliminated.
Another quick note as far as the laminate design, the fiberglass being used is a 0/90* non-woven, or non-crimp fabric (NCF), and probably of about 12oz/yd. It seems that there are no fibers on this part running diagonally, or corner to corner. On a part like this exposed to high temp from the sun, the resin will shrink and likely warp the piece. Even if it’s held down and the warping isn’t visible, it will be under stress.

Now to answer the questions.

Q: How do i stop the surface layer from lifting where the core edges are?
A: Not sure what is being asked. Surface layer as in the first ply, or the surface of your lay up (peel ply or flow media)?

I infused it sideways. I had 2 intake lines and 2 vacuum lines. All sideways to the part.
If that works then great, as it keeps the resin travel distance to a minimum. Personally, I’d run the feed line across the middle of the part and place a vacuum line on the front and rear edges. Alternatively, I’d feed the resin down the center along the length, and put a vacuum line on each side. A piece like this could be infused fully in about 5 minutes even with only 1 resin supply line.
What size tubing is being used?

I clamped off the line when it was fully infused.
This a a big problem I encounter when consulting with clients on their problematic parts. In reference to the underline above, it may look fully infused on the surface through the bag, but the side against the mold isn’t saturating as fast. Especially in this instance where there’s a solid core impeding the flow. I use cores with special features to combat this. ( Can’t give away everything!) As is evident on this part, the resin is indeed reaching the mold surface in most areas, but you still got some dry spots on the surface.
This can be a long post. What is between your layup and vac line openings? Is a vac pot
used between the pump and part? There should be a gap between the reinforcements and flow media of the layup, and the vac lines. Only peel ply should be in between. This allows air to go through without a problem, but is very hard for resin to flow through.
When the part looks like it’s fully infused, the resin should get to the edge of the fabrics of the layup and the flow media, and will encounter peel ply smashed between the mold surface and the bag. DON’T clamp off the feed line yet! Like anything, the resin will take the path of least resistance. If there are any dry spots remaining, the resin will go into them before flowing through the peel ply towards the vac lines. When it starts going through the peel ply only area, clamp off the resin supply.

The resin had a 25 minute pop life. I had it fully infused in about 11 to 12 minutes and had still about 10 minutes to spare after it was fully infused. As far as the specs it has a 25 minute pot life at 2% and that is what I used. Could the resin be too thin and running too fast and end up closing itself off?
As I mentioned above, a part like this should infuse in about 5 minutes with an optimal feed and vac line setup, and a resin of 500cps or lower. Can’t be too thin for infusion. When it seems like it closes itself off, resin will still flow into that area if the feed line is open. Clamping off the feed will not allow more resin into the laminate, and that dry area will have to try to fill in with the resin available in the laminate already, which is likely to not be enough.

As for flow media under the core, I highly recommend against it. Creates a very weak ply between the reinforcement and core. NCF’s are basically structural flow medias. You’ve already seen that resin can get under there, just have to figure out how to do it thoroughly.

I will keep your tab open, and send the bill later! :smiley:

well I infused another one. This one was a little smaller just incase it screwed up again. It infused fine with no dry spots. I did put a little flow media under the core. I did this before anyoe answered lol. I think I need to upgrade my core that has channels in it or something to help the underlayers to saturate. Here are the pics

First off this made me sad :frowning:

Fully infused no dry spots

It did end up having a bag leak but no air was present on the surface of the part. I had no leak that was noticable when I did a leak down test. It only started leaking when resin hit the spot. Here is the core, again I had to piece it together

Q: How do i stop the surface layer from lifting where the core edges are?
A: Not sure what is being asked. Surface layer as in the first ply, or the surface of your lay up (peel ply or flow media)?

what I am asking is on some of the edges of the core you can see where the vacuum has lifted the surface laminate from the mold surface.
example

You can see where it lifted. It filled that area with resin.

I am running 25.5 hg. That is the best I can get in the elevation I am. I am using a robinair 5600 I think is the model.

I think maybe the problem as well is the resin tube I am using. I can’t think on the top of my head what it is but it is smaller than what I have seen on videos doing simular size molds. If I put my resin feed line in the middle, how does it get to the bottom layers through the middle of the core? I am using a pressure pot between the part and the pump. I will make sure to put a better resistance line where the vacuum comes in. I think I might be too close to the laminate with it rather then having just a layer of peel ply between.

Thanks again for all your help! Plus everyone else if you have questions please take pictures. I have seen a lot of problem questions but most do not post pics. I have a hard time helping or even figuring out problems unless I have something visual to look at!!!

Is your core material cut with a 45* angle on the edges?
I’d recommend a single 3/8" ID feed line, and something to distribute the resin inside the bag.

I’ll try to get some pics showing how we do some stuff.

what is this “something” I should use to distribute the resin :slight_smile:

Always excited to see your pictures. My core is not cut at a 45 degree angle. I will do that on the next one as well

Something, would be spiral wrap, a mesh sleeve, perforated tubing, etc. Only 1 feed line goes into the mold through the bag, but it’s connected to “something” inside that will distribute the resin where it’s needed.

If your core has straight cut sides, that’s a huge no-no! It’s just asking for trouble with a weak corner and possible bag bridging leading to resin rich areas.

Some small examples from demonstrations I’ve done:

Awesome! That all helps. Anyone know where I can get the what I have been told is dual twill kevlar. TET, it is the same kevlar you were using in your demonstration pics you posted. My supplier has been out for 3 weeks and I have several roofs I have to make to match the hoods I did and I only have the normal twill fabric.

Any help would be appreciated

Take a look at my thread here: http://www.compositeforum.werksberg.com/showthread.php?t=3240

I cancelled a program that was using that material. Have quite a bit available. It’s not the common hybrid that has carbon in one direction and kevlar (sometimes colored) in the other direction.

I am still going to do a little searching for it. I need about 30 yards and that is about double what i was paying for it last week and my supplier is just out of stock. But I will keep it in mind just incase I am in dire need of it ASAP!

For 30 yards I’d be able to bring down the price a bit. I had factored in the paper tubes and wrapping needed for each 5 yard lot.
Keep in mind this is most likely different than what’s out there normally. Hexcel rarely makes this stuff, so I have to pay a lot for rolls.

Looks to be the same as what I was getting. It is a 7oz material.

PM me what you would do 20 yards and 30 yards for?

thanks