I think its time to switch to a different surface coat - need advice

Hi everyone,

I have been using Smooth-On epoxy surface coat to make molds for a while now. Honestly I have not been impressed but have not tried anything else so I don’t know exactly what to expect. I think I have finally made a decision to move away from it.

I pulled a part today, and a piece of the mold came out with it. If I make any type of repair, the repaired part just comes out the next time I pull a part, so the mold is basically ruined. I have attached a picture of what happened. I also noticed that the resin was a bit tacky still and its been a while since this mold was made. I think that Smooth-On might be a cheaper brand that isn’t really made to do what I need (carbon fiber car and motorcycle parts).

Here is what I use now…
http://www.smooth-on.com/Laminating-Epoxies/c1335_1366/index.html

I was wondering what people use as a surface coat to make molds? Is it essential to use Epoxy? And where can I buy good quality surface coat? I want to be able to pull a lot of pieces from each mold. Right now I am afraid each time I pull a part that the mold will be destroyed.

Second question. What release wax does everyone use, or is PVA the way to go? Right now I use PARTALL PASTE #2 WAX and thats it. Maybe I should be using a PVA instead and spray it into my molds? Any help would be great. Maybe I am not waxing enough and thats why my molds are breaking? I would really prefer to just spray on a PVA, I think it would be easier, and I could do more coats quicker.

Here is a picture of how the mold broke (sorry still dirty and pic taken from phone). You can also see another problem I have with this surface coat. The carbon prints into the mold (he parts turn out fine so its not a big deal)

How have you made the mould? I would now repair that mould quick and dirty and then make a plug including mouldlip. That plug can be polished to class A surface.
Prepare the plug with a good carnauba based release wax.
Paint on a layer of mould surface coat (I prefer aluminium filled epoxy) and cover it with cotton flocs direct after painting. When its hard drape dry fabrics and infuse the mould. So you can be sure that there are no voids in the mould, that your mould is tight and the cotton flocs make sure that you have a mechanical bonding between laminate and surface coat.

I brush on epoxy and then when it is tacky I lay fiberglass and wet out with resin.

I like this idea very much. I am just confused as to how you infuse the back of the mold.

Envelope bagging the plug with the layers makes it possible. Wet layup brings danger to enclose air, and then it will happen that surface coat breaks out .

So you put the whole plug in a bag with the dry layers of fiberglass, then you pull a vacuum and then infuse resin? Do you use any infusion material or peel ply to keep the resin for sticking to the bag?

Complete layup like a normal infusion. It is a infusion on a positiv mould, nothing else.

I think Ill give it a try. Thanks.

Do you suggest using a PVA or a wax? I like the idea of spraying a PVA because my parts can be hard to get wax into.

If you spray PVA you have to make sure that you have clean air to get a perfect surface. For the plug I prefer wax, for the parts spraying pva.

Ok, thanks for the great advise!

Last question (I hope). To confirm, you said to cover the surface coat in cotton flock and let it totally dry (about 24 hours). Then you infuse the dry materials? Right now I let the surface coat get tacky and then start adding glass and resin by hand.

You put the cotton flox on the epoxy/aluminum surface coat and let that cure. The cotton flox gives the next layer something to bond too, otherwise you would have to use peel ply or a grinder to get the surface to adhere to the next layer.

After the surface coat and flox is cured you vacuum infuse the rest of the layup like normal. Infusing helps eliminate voids so that the surface coat doesn’t break loose during repeated uses of the tool.

The reason you cure the surface coat and flox first is that you can’t vacuum infuse the uncured surface coat (need to infuse dry material).

Thanks guys!

This makes perfect sense now. I had a different idea in my head but now I am really excited about making my next mold. This method should ensure a tight and perfect mold.

BTW, those surface coat failures look to be caused by fabric bridging the corner. The best surface coats in the world will fail like that if there are voids between the surface coat and the reinforcement.

Also, to clarify, you must spray the PVA on top of a wax. You don’t use the PVA alone. Wax the mold then shoot the PVA. You many know this but I couldn’t tell from the comments made. The PVA will give you an easier release than just wax. Once a mold is conditioned you can wax once every 4 or 5 cycles with PVA being used each cycle.

You could also move to a semi-permanent and do away with the wax and the PVA. This will speed up your production and could improve your surface finish. Semi’s go on very easily and quickly. They will also replicate your mold finish unlike the PVA.

If you part size isn’t very deep or very large you could just cast the back right over your surface coat and forgo any reinforcment. Mix oven dried playground sand and Adtech EL-302-PC to a slurry consistency, pour it over the surface coat to about 3/4" and be done.

Here is a qoute I recently made in another thread:

I make my own surface coat using my chosen laminating/tooling epoxy resin and a fast hardener. I mix in 27% West System 404 High Density filler and 12% graphite powder by weight. I brush this first coat on rather thinly (dimensional), wait 10 minutes, and then zap it with a torch. The torch super heats the air bubbles and causes them to pop. I let this first coat tack up (tacky to touch but doesn’t transfer to finger). This I use the same resin and wet-out lengths of carbon tow. I work the tow into any tight corners with the tip of a small acid brush where fabric bridging can be an issue. I usually use 3 pieces of 12K in the corners. Then immediately I’ll brush on another application of the surface coat, wait 10 minutes, and zap it with a torch. I’ll then sprinkle this with cotton flock and blow off the excess. If the cotton flock seems to disappear I’ll sprinkle it again. I do this by putting some flock on a piece of screen. Then I just tap the screen to dispense the flock. At this point you can either stop and let it cure or continue with the reinforcement once the second application of surface coat has gone tacky. The flock will make for good secondary bonding if you decide to take a break. Depending on the part depth I’ll continue the process in the following ways.

If the part depth is rather thin then I’ll brush the surface coat with resin and then I’ll just mix Adtech EL-302-PC low shrinkage laminating epoxy and oven dried playground sand into a pourable slurry. I’ll pour this slurry over right over the plug so everything is nicely covered leaving a flat surface. The sand will sink and the excess resin will rise to the surface. There will also be a lot of bubbles that will rise to the surface. These can be simply popped with the torch. If you mold is small you can be done at this stage. If the mold is larger or requires more strength then I’ll use the excess resin to wet out around 30 ounces of glass. This goes really fast since the surface is now flat. Then I’ll mix up some sand and epoxy to a very stiff consistency and pack about 3/4" on top of the glass, then add 30 more ounces of glass. The glass weight and orientation should mirror the first layer of glass. The advantage is that this system poses no risk of fabric print-thru to the mold surface and the laminating is super easy since it’s performed on a flat surface. The downside is that these molds can be rather heavy and it requires a forming damn around the perimeter.

My favourite for cooler than 100 degrees C cure cycles is just a simple VE tooling gelcoat (Nord Composites GC206, Tg 135 degrees C) backed with vinylester (R842) and VE tooling resin (RM3000).
Use a semiperm as a release, except for the first 1 or 2 parts. (use PVA for these). This will help reduce surface reactivity. (sticking in moulds)

For below 75 degrees C RM2000 is an option even (Tg 85 degrees C)

Great advise! Thank you!