Easy Composites Uni-Mould Release Trouble

General Composites Discussions Products Talk
#1

Hi guys, My brother and I are using easycomposites uni-mould tooling system and have to say I like the process and how well the surface cleans up after 1500/2000 wet sand and polish. Unfortunately though, we’ve scrapped a very nicely finished door card mould and two small vent surround moulds from poor release as I couldn’t get our wet lay to release at all (used all Easy Composites products: Easylease, polyester gelcoat and polyester laminating resin; 1.5- 2% MEKP, 20degC, 48hr cure) - better joint than some bonds I’ve made in the past!

I did a back-to-back test on a glass panel and saw no difference in release with wax or the Easylease I’d used, however a PRF epoxy released much cleaner than the poly, so I switched to that. We then tried to make some of the smaller vent surrounds in replacement moulds and had the epoxy grab pretty hard as well, to the extent that although both parts could be removed, there a several areas of stress cracks in the tooling gelcoat.

So, my questions are - has anyone else had issues like this with uni-mould or a similar tooling system, and what was the solution? Will post curing the moulds make a significant difference?

I’ve not got loads of composites parts experience, but I’ve done enough to know that i should be able to get under a corner and then pop the whole thing without much effort… I hope you guys can help, we’ve been working on this for almost a year and all I have to show is a lonely wife and 5 busted moulds!

Thanks, Jonty

#2

That is definitely an issue with your release system and not with the mould surface. How old is the Easylease?

#3

Thanks for the reply Hanaldo; the Easylease was bought on 20 March this year, so not too old. One thing that frustrates me with Easy Composites is they don’t have use by dates on the products, but I can’t imagine ~6 months is going to kill the stuff…

We’re using Mirka polishing compounds, then after this is complete I’ll wipe down with a wet cloth to clean off any residue. I’ve not used the easylease mould cleaner prior to application of easylease itself as it seemed like that was for when a mould is being pulled out of storage, but I guess it could be useful for the compound… Do you think this is a critical step?

One reason I’ve homed in the mould surface is because flash tape and the samples I did on flat sheet glass all just released perfectly - or would you expect to see a marked difference between these and the mould surface anyway?

#4

Well I’m not sure about Easylease, but the Frekote system I use is very hygroscopic, so every time I open the container the life of the product is reduced. I imagine the Easylease may be similar. Have you had the container open for long periods of time at all? I suspect this isn’t your issue though, if you are getting good releases off the glass.

How are you applying the Easylease? Are you doing the correct number of coats? Correct time between coats and between layup? Glass has very few surface cracks and porosity, so it requires less release agent. A gelcoat surface will have a lot of microporosity and require more release agent.

Are you absolutely 100% sure that there is no water left on the mould surface after you wipe it down? I dry my moulds with compressed air and a heat gun then give it 24 hours before applying the release agent. Reason being, any moisture severely compromises the release system.

#5

I’m using lint free cloths to wipe it on to a small area (15x15cm ish) and then actually 2 to wipe off as I find this leaves fewer streaks. The mould is definitely dry as any moisture would stop us from checking the surface for scratches, but maybe the unseen polishing compound residue is having us over? With regard to being open for a long time I don’t recall it ever being left with the lid off, apart from maybe not bothering to put the lid on during the application process.

We are respecting the number of coats (4), and with the timing I’ve sometimes not kept the best eye on it after checking I’ve got s roughly 15min cycle to apply first time, but the last few attempts I’ve been timing it accurately. Generally we’re moulding a day after applying release… Any idea if this will have a detrimental effect?

#6

What polishing compound are you using? Does it contain any silicone or wax?

#7

Mirka Polarshine - http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/products/polishing-and-finishing/mirka-polarshine-c20.aspx

“solvent and silicone free”

and

http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/scholl-concepts-s3-gold.html

“water based”, “no chemical cleaners”, “no fillers or glazing oils.”

We just demoulded a rectangular air box (with a large scallop over one corner) made using a diagnonally split 2 piece mould, having used Easylease and then Meguiars Mirror Glaze over the top, and this came out better, without the stress fracturing. When I was removing the peel ply - which was about 30mins of maximum effort as it was very resin rich and the breather was soaked - the force involved here released about 80% of the part, but I still had to work pretty hard for maybe another 5-10 mins to get the deepest corner to release; the box is just made of 2 plys of 200g glass, and at one point I buckled it whilst trying to push out of the corner, luckily only causing minor damage, and whilst this is at least a workable release, still goes to show we’re a way off perfect.

#8

This is very interesting. I’m afraid I may have exhausted my usefulness, given I don’t have any access to or experience with Easylease. Have you spoke to the EC guys? They are normally extremely helpful and very knowledgeable, so they will probably be able to help you more. I’d love to know what the issue is.

#9

Thanks very much for your help mate, I appreciate the time you’ve taken to reply, and you’ve made some useful points I’m taking on board. The Easy Composites guys were suggesting if the mould was very fresh then it could still have styrene coming out the gel coat, but really as in days not weeks old, they also recommended going from 1 to 2% catalyst just to be certain we’re getting the cure done for a 48hr release, ensuring temp is stable around 20degC, and really it should work… Without them seeing exactly what we’re doing I guess it’s hard to advise, just as you’ve found!

So the plan of attack is I’m going to get the small trim moulds post cured tomorrow at work (materials lab have good kit so will slot in when an oven is free) which will ensure styrene and water are both taken care of, then I will clean with easylease mould cleaner to ensure there is nothing funny going on there, and lastly use wax after applying the full build up of easylease.

We’ve been renting our workshop for a year now and our main emphasis is planned to be the composite stuff (as well as the normal messing around with cars stuff), with a goal of having a sideline business making track car aero kit, so if this doesn’t work I will probably cry a bit… Followed by regrouping and finding someone local who can give me a kit list of stuff they have definitely got good results from and so I can concentrate on improving my actual laminating skills… All being well with the release I’m sure there will be another thread started soon with a plea for help on how to improve our wetlay technique!

#10

I’d normally say that your gelcoat hadn’t full cured yet and the mold was still too green to pull a PE/VE part off of, but since you said you were having the same issues with an epoxy wet lay in the first post that kind of does away with that theory.

It’s generally not a good idea to mix semi perms with any other release systems, so I would say don’t try laying down the easy lease and then waxing over it. Rather, I would suggest you just fully remove the semi perm from the surface and try just a wax layer and maybe a wax layer and then brush or spray on some PVA if you want real security. A lot of people on here use that wax+pva combo on the first couple of pulls off of their new PE/VE molds before cleaning off the wax and switching to a semiperm (again, because the mold might still be fairly green and ready to bond to other PE systems laid into it).

2 months ago I posted a similar thread in which I had the same problem with a semi perm system - my can went bad pretty quickly, and most people attributed it to the container being left open for too long, or not being properly sealed. I’d consider getting a new can of easylease, or even better, switching to the frekote system so you can seal your mold with their frekote FMS and then apply frekote 700 or 770 semi perm release. What’s even better: they’re cheaper than easycomposites’ semi perm (and it wouldn’t surprise me if EC just rebranded frekote has their own in house stuff)

#11

Thanks very much for the feeback! Our moulds are all many weeks (some many months) old before taking these first pulls, and since until the last few days ambient temp has been 20degC I’m fairly certain this is not our issue, but good to bear in mind for future projects.

After Hanaldo’s and your pointers I am going to get a new can of easylease (~£10 here) and also their mould cleaner, as the airbox mould that released better my bro tells me he cleaned with panel wipe so removed the compounding residue, and also this is further backed up by this morning I’ve seen this post from one of the Easy Composites guys:

“If you’re going to apply a chemical release agent to a mould you really need to be starting with a clean mould, hence the existence of Mould Cleaner. Mould Cleaner will strip of any traces of wax, pva, other release agents etc. from the surface of the mould, leaving a clean surface which is ready to accept the Chemical Release Agent. Applying the Easy-Lease Chemical Release Agent over the top of anything else is certainly NOT recommended although, conversley, you can apply Mould Release Waxover the top of Chemical Release Agent.”

Here you can see he says it’s fine to appy wax, so I think I will stick with this for now… If we have any dramas from now on I think I will switch to your advise of wax and PVA, however long term I want to be using a semi-perm that gives me a really good surface straight from the mould.

The moulds are with my colleague to go into the oven for the prescribed post cure, the Easylease cleaner and release should arrive by the time they are done, and then all being well I’ll get the parts moulded on Sunday.

#12

It’s fine to apply wax over a semi-perms, have done it several times myself.

With regards to the moulds not having cured enough, I don’t personally believe this will be your issue. I have, when in an extreme rush to turn out critical parts before a race meeting, successfully layed up a vinyl ester mould, demoulded it a couple hours later, applied release agent and infused. I was building plug, mould and final carbon part in less than 48 hours. Whilst I certainly don’t recommend doing things this way, I didn’t have any issues at all with release. The parts fell out of the moulds as they always do. Whilst I’m using Frekote and can’t say for sure that Easylease is as powerful, by all accounts it is very similar.

So I wouldn’t entirely rule it out, but I don’t necessarily think it is the issue.

#13

Hi Jonty,

If you are new to semi-permanent release systems, it might be worth checking you are using the correct application techniques.

I noticed in an earlier post you described a wipe on, wipe off technique. Unless your semi-permanent release agent specifically requires a wipe off, we strongly recommend using only a wipe on motion. The key here is using a WHITE cotton cloth, or lint-free application wipe/towel. Cut a 10cm x 10cm square and dip only 1/3 of it in the release liquid. Fold the wet portion into the dry portion, such that it is evenly damp, but not dripping wet. Wipe evenly across the surface of mould, such that you can just see a film forming, but without any “pooling” or “beads” of moisture. You may need to re-damp the towel after applying to 0.5 m2 or so. Be sure to wipe the entire surface and let sit for around 20 minutes (varies with different brands/types). Repeat at least 3 times.

Hope you get it figured out!

Cheers.

www.elitecomposites.com.au

#14

Hi Elitec, thanks for this info. I’ve just checked on Easy Composites website and the description is as follows:

“Once the film begins to evaporate (5-30 seconds) use a second piece of cloth lightly in a circular motion to remove the excess and even-out the film.”

So it could well be that this is what we are missing - we’ve been buffing it off like we would with a wax; quite possibly a very silly mistake on our part.

What do you do about the hazy look that is left if you don’t buff off -polish out the finished part, or do you have some other trick?

Thanks!
Jonty

#15

Ah yes! Don’t buff it hard! Certainly not as hard as you would buff a wax. I used to do the wipe on/wipe off method with my Frekote, but I found it is better to apply less and only wipe on. You shouldn’t need to worry too much about the residue, buff it LIGHTLY to get the majority of it off and any remainder shouldn’t transfer. If you apply your coats too heavy then it might be difficult to remove.

#16

Spot on Hanaldo.

You can buff off, but you still need a wet film continuos film remaining (no beading).
If you get a haze on your part from it, give it a quick wash (ideally with mold cleaner) and give a quick polish. Any light haze should quickly and easily dissappear.

If you have been buffing off like you would a wax, I suspect this may be your issue.

Do a test peice and let us know - keen to know the results!

Cheers.
Phill
www.elitecomposites.com.au

#17

Thanks to you both!

We have previously done a flat test piece and had good release with our existing prep method, only exception being my brother had cleaned it with panel wipe before applying release and buffing off. I think I’m going to plunge straight in with the small trim pieces since there won’t be enough of a difference to really determine if it has improved the situation.

Yesterday we got the trim piece moulds back from the post cure; I could definitely smell the purged styrene so maybe this will help as well. In the evening we then wet flatted the stress cracks again, since the post cure moved a few of the edges, then polished to a good finish. Easylease release and mould cleaner are at work goods-in for me to collect so I’ll apply this afternoon, followed by gelcoat >1 hour later, lay up sunday, release on tues. I’ll lay up a non-post cured mould as well, so that I get a back to back comparison on that, but I am pretty hopeful that the combination of using the mould cleaner and then not wiping all the easylease off will do the trick.

I’ll keep you updated!

#18

Not sure if I’ve mentioned in this thread (I mentioned it on this forum recently but can’t remember if it was this thread), but a quick and easy test of the release system can tell you if it’s working or not and save a lot of time and potentially your mould/parts. Apply your release agent as you would, then just before you start laying up the mould, place a piece of 2" masking tape on the mould surface. It should pull off with no or very little resistance. I actually place small blobs of hot melt glue all over my mould in different places so that I’m sure the release agent has worked all over the mould. If it has, the blobs come off so easily you can pull them all off like a chain just with the ‘string’ connecting them.

#19

Thanks, I’ll do a tape test; I watched a frekote application video yesterday so I could see what sort of adhesion is acceptable, will definitely use this to sanity check my release…

#20

Well to be honest I’ve never had my tape curl up on me like it does in their video. I’ve managed to blow it off, but it just doesn’t curl up on its own. So don’t panic if it doesn’t come off THAT easily. If you put the tape on before you apply any release agent and then again after, you will notice the huge difference. If you don’t notice a difference then you likely have issues.