Bio Resins...

General Composites Discussions Composites Talk
#1

Hey Guys,

Just wondering if anyone out there has any experience using Bio Resins, biofoam and Hemp instead of the normal foam cores, epoxy resins and eps foam?

It seems super expensive to buy at the moment (but I guess it is an emerging technology), but I am quite interested in it, as I think its the way things are going to end up going eventually.

Has anyone out there built anything with thats enviromentially friendly? I know there is a one or two surf board shapers out there who have built thing…Also any ideas what you would paint with?!

Anyhow, thanks in advance,

Mark.

#2

There are a few threads talking about natural fibres (hemp, flax, etc.) but I haven’t seen much mention of bio resins or foam.

Seems like it’s still a bit experimental at the moment, and the fibres probably aren’t developed to a point where they would be suitable for structural uses.

#3

I have built a 6,5 meter (21 ft or so) boat with flax, cork and bio epoxy (Greenpoxy, from Sicomin). Worked pretty much OK. There are some hickups, but I think we have overcome most of them.

Do you have a B14?

#4

We have been researching bio resins around here for years, but they are expensive to make, and sometimes the resin is NOT given up for people to use in projects, and is kind of kept to the bio-group, like a bunch of greedy children. The idea is to get rid of a lot of the oil based parts, and styrene. However, they have only been able to get good resin by replacing 25% or less with bio materials. Promising, but it has a long way to go before wide-scale use.
You can try contacting Richard Wool at wool@udel.edu and see if you can work with him for the application side of his bio-materials. Might work.

#5

What is the standardised way to look at things? The GReenpoxy I mentioned clims to have 55% ofthe carbon used in the product replaced by carbon from natural sources. So the carbon footprint is smaller.

#6

Materials KTN are hosting a bio-resins workshop on 17th September in London with Composites UK - may be of interest to you.

#7

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies, and sorry that I havn’t got back sooner. I have been a bit busy with work repairing sailing dinghies.

Herman, very interested in the boat that you built, but no I don’t have a B14- though I did quite a bit of work on the B14 that my boss used at the worlds :confused:

My interest really is related to surfboard/windsurf board applications. I was trying to figure out how easy it would actually be to build something. Although I havn’t actually built anything yet, but well, I am guessing that the processes would be similar, just different materials?

I found that you can shape out of something called bio-foam. This is a foam which is derived from Sugar. It still requires fossel fuel in the processing in order to produce it, but I think the point is that it creates a lot less CO2 Emitions. See their website.

I also found a bio-epoxy. Not really sure if its any good, and how its characteristics compare with say, Ampreg 21 or the high temp resins. But it looked potentially quite promising. This is their website.

I figured that for a core, the best use would be end grain balsa wood - or would another type of wood be preferable? - I don’t know an awful lot about wood - but I am learning. I am not 100% sure how you would wrap an object (like a foam shaped), guessing though, that it would involve a vacuum bag. Its pretty common in the windsurf world anyway, for boards bottoms/hulls to be wood these days - as they seem to last longer (re-enforced with carbon usually). Running stringers through the foam is also a pretty common way of re-enforcing things. I even know of companies putting wood into the rails as well.

The part I am not 100% sure about is the re-enforcement. Does anyone know any articles/websites/any ideas what I could use. I am guessing that you can get the fibres weaved in the same ways as glass or carbon - IE, uni, woven and bi-axel? What are the the stiffness/strength ratios like compared to say standard modulus carbon or E glass?

Anyhow, just trying to get my head around it all at the moment. As you guys have all said. Its a bit expensive at the moment - probaly because no-one is really manufacturing much in it, and its not being produced in great quantities, so their are no economies of scale there.

Quite interested in that workshop in London. I may try and attend it, however works very busy at the moment.

Thanks again for the posts guys,

Mark.

#8

Corecork and flax :slight_smile:

#9

Oh right, thats a really cool project! Is she a keel boat or a dinghy?

#10

I spent this afternoon researching a few things. Found an interesting article on green composites. I am not saying that its 100% brilliant, but it was good to read.

Further on from this, I found this website for getting hold of flax in different weaves. So looking at it, you should be to use these clothes just like e-glass with whatever resin you like. I quite like the idea and I shall look into experimenting with it at some point.

I also found an article on the guardian website from a few years ago. Some quite interesting things mentioned in it.

My only problem now, as far as I see it, is what you would use in place of gel coat or hard wearing paint to finish with? I guess some more time researching is required.

Anyhow, I will do a bit more research…

Thanks for the posts,

Mark.

#11

Hi Mark,

Here is a picture of a “Valk” on the dry (not a biobased one). It does not sail unleaded…

We now sell low twist flax yarn based multiaxials, which are infusible. The woven flax used for the Biovalk was so dense that we could fold a basket out of if, and pour resin in without it getting through the fabric. You can see it on the picture, which has some “leopard skin”. (dry spots between the blocks)

Indeed something like a biogelcoat is not available yet, to my knowlegde.

As for the B14 project: I sailed a Topper Boss, and my brother in law first had a Laser 5000, and later upgraded to a 49er. Nice boats. Miss the sailing.